In this episode I speak with the Chair of the UK Forest School Association Lily Horseman. Lily has been instrumental in supporting the growth and rise of really good quality Forest School Provision in the UK. She share’s her thoughts on the rise of nature connection in the mainstream as well as how she is dealing with the current situation of lockdown. We discuss our understanding of the need for nature connection, its healing potential and ability to support a healthy world. We also share our hopes for transformation to a more nature connected way of living as we move into the next stages of life after crisis.
Things we talk about in this episode
Links mentioned in this episode
www.forestschoolassociation.org
www.kindlingplayandtraining.co.uk
Find Kindling on facebook and twitter or find ideas and inspiration on the blog
Our website is www.livewild.org.uk/connectionmatterspodcast
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The music for this podcast is -Hermosa Dia by Ray Johnson https://soundcloud.com/visionray
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Biography
Lily is a Forest School trainer and practitioner through Kindling; kindlingplayandtraining.co.uk. She currently chairs the Forest School Association; www.forestschoolassociation.org and works with local communities through Stomping Ground; www.stompingground.org.uk
Lily's work centres around the creating communities for learning and connecting nature. Her background in playwork and designed crafts means she brings a playful and creative approach to all she does.
0 (9s): This is Live wilds connection matters podcast, bringing together heart centered nature, connected, curious people who share the inquiry. How can we create a connected and meaningful way of living that brings more happiness and growth to our world? My name is Leona Johnson, and this is episode three. Well, hello, beautiful humans. How are you today? I hope you're well, I'm really good.
0 (39s): I've just come in from a really wet, wild lush, vibrant green jungle, like walk in the woods near me with a friend was so lovely, so good to get out. Even in the rain, quite fair weather nature connected, but decided just to cover it up and go for it. It was well worth it. If anyone needs some inspiration to get out in the rain, I just get that hood up and go for it. It's so good. I always get out and go. Why do I, why do I avoid this so much?
0 (1m 11s): So I'm excited to be here today with you to introduce Lily horseman. Lily horseman is the chair of the UK forest school association, and she's been really instrumental in supporting the growth and rise of really good quality forest school provision in the UK. So I really wanted to bring her on to connection matters just to open up the conversation around forest school and nature connection. I really feel that the rise of forest schools across the UK and the world has really brought nature connection to the mainstream rhetoric.
0 (1m 49s): There's so much research. Now there's so much out there in the news it's happening and that feels good to me. It feels like the change in the right direction. Children need nature connection. We all need nature connection. So Lily horseman is one of those people that you can speak to her hours. She's really authentic and down to earth, but she's actually a real leader in her field. She runs kindling play and training. And as I said before, she chairs the forest school association as well as works with local communities through an organization called stomping ground.
0 (2m 27s): So all these links will be shared in the show notes there, where there's a little bit with the quality of the audio. It's not too bad, but there are parts that aren't quite so good. So sorry about that. If you liked the show, please consider supporting@patreon.com forward slash connection matters podcast. This is where you'll find bonus episodes, giveaways, and behind the scenes content from me over time, all the support we received here really makes it possible for this to carry on. So thank you.
0 (2m 58s): I'm really, really, truly to anyone who feels that they can support this and that from the beginning, because it's really going to make a difference to how we carry on. If you haven't already done it, don't forget to subscribe on whichever podcast service she is and should be there this way. You'll get all of the episodes into your device straight away. And it's also helpful. If you can to leave a review on iTunes, this is what affects our rating. So if you get a chance to rate us and see what you think, then that will be really great.
0 (3m 33s): I think that's it for now. So this is Lily horseman.
1 (3m 41s): Good morning, Lily. Hoseman thank you so much for coming to join me in this virtual space for connection matters podcast. I'm really glad to see your lovely face. And I've been really excited about having this conversation because it feels like as a fellow northerner and a fellow forest school nature connection person, there's plenty to talk about right now. So, yeah. Welcome.
2 (4m 7s): Thank you. And I feel like we keep almost meeting as well. A number of times we've being studied in a car park on our way to, as everybody's leaving, go, Oh, hello again. So it's really nice to actually consciously make a bit of space and go, right. What's happening. Yeah. That feels really, really good.
1 (4m 26s): Yes, definitely. And yeah, before we go on, I'd love to share. I always like to start with a bit of gratitude. I went out this morning early and I stepped outside my door and yet again, the sky was blue and crisp and so unbelievably clear. I was just absolutely taken aback. And I, I feel like I did. I maybe I'm noticing it more right now, but it's almost like being in the mountains.
1 (4m 60s): I've been away in the past and I wake up in the morning and there's this crisp, fresh, clear ad that you just don't seem to get in other places. And now that we've heard weeks and weeks without all the pollution and, you know, driving and, and maybe it's just the time of year, but just really impresses on me how beautiful it is when we've got clear, clean air to breathe. And I could look out over the Hills and see all these like young, fresh, vibrant, pale green leaves coming out on the trees.
1 (5m 35s): And it's just such a precious time of year. Isn't it so very grateful that I can appreciate that, that I've got the space and, and that I have the practice of taking myself outside each morning with my glass of water to, to notice those things. Yeah.
2 (5m 59s): I think similarly, that is something that has really stained me over the last couple of months is being able to step outside and even, you know, noticing an ant trembling across the path and thinking, Oh, I've got time to hang out with this aunt for a little while. And so that for me, just like being able to soak it all in and really, yeah. Actually take that little bit of extra time. Cause I'm not in a rush. I don't have to be somewhere by X o'clock, you know, that, that for me.
2 (6m 33s): So to have the time and time and space, actually that, yeah, it's massive, isn't it? Yeah. Do whatever it is that you need in that moment as well. So that's something I'm really finding that I've got a lot of, a lot of gratitude towards
1 (6m 49s): Muslim. Yes. I share that with you, with that presence, that sense of just space and presence and, and just yeah. Being noticing and having time to share nature is, yeah, it's very precious part of this process that we're in this unique time in history. So I invited you to come and speak to us because I know that you're very involved and have been involved with the forest schools UK for school association UK.
1 (7m 24s): I wonder if you would just tell us a little bit about yourself and what it is that you do and, and what makes you feel alive?
2 (7m 34s): So I I've been for a school practitioner for quite a while now and also for the last 10 years or so. I've been training new practitioners as well. So I spend a lot of time thinking and talking about, about forest school and then when the forest school association formed back in 2012, and I sort of became more and more involved with that. And for the last couple of years, I've been the chair of the high school association. So yeah, and interestingly, what makes me feel alive in that I love championing the work that we do.
2 (8m 9s): And I think for, for people who aren't familiar with forest school, or have only seen it from a distance, there's a lot of subtlety in there and nuance in there that perhaps doesn't always get seen from a distance now there's really, and I think interestingly, when you talk about acts of connection there, the, the ways that we encourage people to connect with themselves, the other people around them, and then the place that they're in the nature and the things that surround them, and then looking at the outcomes and how we best facilitate that.
2 (8m 40s): There was a lot of subtlety and a lot of nuance in that. So for me, and being part of the forest school association, championing that really good quality work is, is, is really key. And yeah, I love, I love thinking about that stuff and nerding out about it. You that's the, this that really makes me feel alive is really trying to understand why and how and what works and how we can really focus on that and emphasize that that's, that's what, what excites me about that sort of work?
1 (9m 9s): Hmm. Cause we we'd got into the position hadn't we as a, as a nation and I guess culturally across the world actually where we've squeezed and squeezed nature connection out of the way that we live and out of our education system, where the education systems become more and more focused on academic outcomes. And it was a few years ago. Cause I wondered, I, I became for a school leader eight years ago because it was when, just after my son was born, I did my training, but actually I volunteered to, to find out more about it just before I had children.
1 (9m 49s): And when I heard the word forest school leader, it just made my ears go pink. What is that? I need to know because I was so as this, a social work background and I was so aware of the disconnection that I was seeing in families and children and, and people generally that I really felt, I was looking out for ways of bringing more connection and, and finding ways that we could interact in a different way and something that would be more systemic in its approach.
1 (10m 21s): And, and I feel like in this short time, since I heard about forest schools and then have subsequently trained, obviously it's become very common in my sphere of influence, but I feel like it's actually become very much more on the mainstream agenda. And people seem to know about forest schools now, is that what your experiences?
2 (10m 43s): Yeah, it's interesting. Cause I used to say to people, people say, what do you do? And I say, well, I'll do forest school and they go what's that? And they say, well, I work with children in the woods. And so after a while I just started to say, Oh, I work with children in the woods. And then we do sort of stuff that helps them. And now people go, Oh, what? Like for school I'm like, Oh actually yeah. For a school. So me having to explain what I mean when I started to explain what, I mean, people understand that as far as school and that's a real shift, right? That's that things that, for some reason as an approach, it's not just the nerve like you described, but a kind of communal nerve and that, Oh, our school, that sounds like a thing.
2 (11m 25s): And, and, and people have become very aware of it and, and, and know about it. And I think that's, that's, that's really powerful, but it also comes with a risk as do most things in life, right. Where there's a, where there's something with benefits, there's also that comes with risk. And so then people going into their yards with AstroTurf and some childrens and bamboo canes to play with and saying that as far as school, does it really have that same quality of connection.
2 (11m 59s): And that's the question, isn't it that we keep coming back to like, does it have the same way to connect with the natural environment? Does it have the same kind of deep level process and permission for children to really explore what's going on for them? And I'm not saying that you can't do all of that without that environment, but I'm looking out my window just now after Woodland, because I know that's the thing that makes it work for me and for so many people as well, rich natural environment. So yeah. Yeah.
2 (12m 29s): It's really interesting how, as a culture we've caught onto some things that there's been an obvious need for
1 (12m 38s): and desire and just, I mean, it's part of our, we're all feeling army, adults and children. I think parents really want it for their children and notice how little time we have for it in our day to day lives, what we're fitting it, fitting in all the after school clubs and childcare and, and then coming home and the draw of screen time. And all of that, you know, has minimized the amount of time and free play opportunities that children have and adults, how, you know, I keep talking about it as though it's just children that need it, but we all do.
1 (13m 14s): And yet, well, yeah. And I totally hear you about this, this quality thing where I work and where I live, there's such beautiful Woodlands all around me. And so to do our sessions and workshops that we hold in, those spaces is just, it's just blissful really. You know, it's very easy. Cause then cause nature does the work. Whereas I've also worked in schools where there's one tree or there's a very manicured and boundaried area that's called the forest school area.
1 (13m 44s): And really we have to take all of the resources and have to take in things and, and it takes a different level of scale and it is a different thing that we're doing.
2 (13m 54s): Yeah, I think you're right. Because in any interaction, if you sort of imagine it like a, a triangle with these three points, so you've got the, the participant, the person who's kind of, there's the person who's facilitating. So like the person who's invited people into that space and then there's the natural environment. And if one of those points is further away or diminished in some way, then something has to spread to reach that. And it may be that the participants are really skilled at finding those ways to connect in that environment.
2 (14m 28s): Or it may be, you know, and if not, then the practitioner has to spread to fill all of that gap. That's that's there. And before I came to forest school, so my background is play and play work. So that's, that's kind of the route I came through. And one of the projects I did was I used to work on a housing association blend. So we'd up, we'd have a little van or a car with some bits and bobs in and the kids would just pile out and we'd play.
2 (14m 59s): And that was funded as a, as a nature based project. But often, like you say, you know, there was just one tree or there was maybe a bit offense or sometimes not even that, but because those children were in a place that they were, you know, they were in their own homes, they were in this place that they played all the time. And we were kind of there adding in extra or facilitating that in some way. Actually those children were quite skilled at playing in that place and could find the, like they knew where the snails lived in the fence, or they knew where the, where, where the soil was looser.
2 (15m 32s): And so actually as facilitators, we had to do less work to help those children connect with that place than if they were new to that place. And so I think that dynamic shift between facilitator participant environment is, is really interesting how, how, how, how you have to stretch. And like you say, sometimes you're the one just like, you know, stretching both ways too, to manage the people who aren't very comfortable in an environment that doesn't invite in some way.
1 (16m 4s): Mm yeah. You know, going back to that point of how disconnected, I think we come in many ways. I used to work in schools in central Manchester, long site in old Trafford. And we would take children out onto the piece of grass with a few trees that there was near them and the children be tripping over their own feet just because there's roots on the floor or there's some sticks. And I realized it's because mainly the, those children were leaving their homes in the morning, either getting in the cars and coming to school or walking along concrete pavements, playing in concrete playgrounds, and then going back home to their hard floor.
1 (16m 46s): And they'd never really walked on uneven ground. And I just find I'm less shocked by it now, but at the time I was just absolutely flabbergasted really that, that there were four and five and six and even seven and eight year olds who, who were so unsteady on their fee on really not very wild terrain, but they hadn't had the opportunities just to experience uneven ground and an irregular grind around them.
1 (17m 19s): And, and, but the beauty and the, the magic in that is that it really doesn't take very long to when you're in that space to actually open up and create the skills that are needed and, and support them because it's there, isn't it, the curiosity is with the children. And as long as you can hold them in a good way so that they feel safe, they will find their ways of interacting, that the, that bring them sort of learning and excitement and, you know, the zest for that, you want to be able to see them having
2 (17m 51s): Exactly that. And, and you know, everything about their physiology is set up to be walking on even ground. And to the point where actually in Japan, a little while ago, I remember reading about people setting up specialist's gardens with only even surfaces so that people could go walk in those in order to rebalance their physiology. Because if you only walk on flat ground, your back starts to hurt and your hips become this aligned and things start to not work.
2 (18m 22s): Right. Because we're so well attuned to a natural environment after, you know, cause it's really only been what the last couple of hundred years that we've been saying inside, you know, with an electric light on. So, so much about our physiology is attuned to being in that environment. And you're right. It's like people's people start to revert to type, but it takes time. You can't do that in one afternoon. You can't allow that confidence to build just over two weeks or something. It does take time because yeah, he'll drive somewhere and go, Whoa, what was the, ground's not normal?
2 (18m 57s): Like, wow, how do I handle this? You know, that takes time in order to, I was going to say to rebalance, but is literally and figuratively rebalancing yourself for that environment.
1 (19m 8s): Mm. Yeah. And that's, I guess that brings me back to another point that you've made about how porous schools is a thing now. And people are qualified for a school leaders for our school leaders are trained not just to play games at doors or just to be able to light fires or just a bit, but in a whole range of social and emotional and practical skills and areas that enable them to hold space and create the learning opportunities that are needed to open up those core needs that children have.
1 (19m 40s): Aren't they?
2 (19m 42s): Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's really good to recognize the kind of level of attention that first school practitioners have paid to all of those things. Well, that's also not to dismiss the idea that parents and teachers and anybody who is with children and in fact, right, even if you're not with children, if you with yourself, just, you know, the value that you can yourself out there and, and finding those things and, you know, testing what you can do and what there is around you, I think, and I'm really noticing at the moment, the number of people who are becoming more aware of what's around them, because actually as your, all the stimulus gets shut off, so you don't have the same social circle, or maybe you did all the same schedule of after, you know, things that you have to do each day, what do you do instead?
2 (20m 37s): Well, you start to pay attention. Right? Cause you know, you've got to do something. We are creatures that seek input. So yeah, the number of people who've been sending me pictures of things going, what's this, I've seen this in my garden. It's never been there before. And it probably has, but you maybe just haven't noticed it yet. So it's really interesting to see that, that level of attention that the everybody can pay and the benefits of that.
2 (21m 7s): A huge outline. Yeah.
1 (21m 9s): Yeah. Let's talk about the benefits of nature connection, because I think sometimes when you're in the circle of people who are working as nature connectors, whether that's forest school or otherwise, or just people who are very passionate about it and do spend a lot of their time outdoors sometimes for example, when I go to London and I go, ah, that's millions of people who really don't think about this every day or this whole, the sways of, of society that have so many other things that are important to them, that actually nature isn't at the forefront of their minds.
1 (21m 42s): So yeah, I like to sort of remind myself of that and get out of my bubble and, and, you know, go back to what it is about nature. That's so beneficial, how you find resourcing yourself from nature right now. Well,
2 (21m 57s): I was just thinking about what you were saying about the, about that sort of who's disconnected. And it was just thinking about a friend of mine. Who's been a, an outdoor activity instructor for years. Like, you know, and she said, always remember where the junkies, you know, we're already hooked on this. We already, we already see that the way that it feeds us and that for months people it's quite weird and a bit alien and we should never assume this is normal. Right. But I think, I think it's really, really good to remember, because like you say, when you're in your own bubble, you kind of think it's completely normal to just climb out the window in London barefoot or whatever it is that you're drawn to moment, but actually for lots of people that's so filled with almost like a sense of judgment, like, like, or fear or anxiety or, and that's also a way we connect with nature.
2 (22m 53s): Right. You know, that's, that's the other thing our bodies are tuned to do is, is to, to feel those things. But when it gets displaced, that's, that's quite overwhelming, isn't it? Yeah. So, so for me, I feel very lucky, but it's not that because I know that I've been resorting myself for years with my connection with nature. Like, you know, since childhood it's been the thing that I've done climbing trees and, and sort of, you know, poking around the back garden.
2 (23m 26s): So it, it is really normal for me. And so for, for now, when I'm, when I'm being tested on other levels, the fact that I can just go, right, I'm just going to walk really slowly and see if I can notice a flower that I didn't notice yesterday. So, so I've got, I moved at the end of last summer to an area where there's a little tiny patch of Woodland, just, just outside my window there. And most, yeah, every day I reckon I've just walked super slowly around it.
2 (23m 59s): Cause it's only little. So I have to walk really slow. And I've just looked to see if something's coming to flower and that wasn't into flower yesterday in flower yesterday. And I've been trying to record that to see what comes up, you know, kind of really get to know that area. So that's, you know, that sort of requires a level of focus. That means that then my brain can't do the fluffy flip, like, you know, the, all of the stress stuff and that it would, it would possibly be due if it was left to its own devices.
2 (24m 34s): You know, it's a really, really useful way just to kind of Suze and calm. And like I say, all of that, all of our nerve endings that really want to take in information like that, that are attuned to that environment are all just really good. That's all better. Yes. The fact that if we see lots of blue and green and our eyes physiologically, so like physically kind of, you know, the, the cones are set up for that.
2 (25m 5s): Like it's not coincidence at all. So the fact that all that information gets taken in and the stress system just goes, Oh, it's amazing. I feel really, yeah. Really excited to be able to do that as part of my everyday.
1 (25m 21s): Hmm. There's so much people who do it, know it, but there's so much science to back it up. Isn't there so much science to sort of say, to show and demonstrate the, the physical and social and emotional benefits of spending time in nature and that the kind of things that they stay, that, that does for you, you need from, you know, when you take your shoes off and touch the earth with your feet, you actually earth, you know, it's an actual which we build up charged don't we in our houses
2 (25m 58s): Juggle interchange. Yeah.
1 (25m 59s): Yeah. And so when we, when we physically put our feet on the floor, we earth ourselves and discharge, some of that built up excess energy. And when I read that, Oh, she's like, Oh, that's of course, but I didn't know that before. And it makes so much sense and it does feel so good whenever you've walked around barefoot. And sometimes when I don't, when I can't sleep very well, I, I go to that as a, as a, one of the things that I do to try and help me better.
1 (26m 32s): And it seems to work for me. You know, I actually, I find a night when I've not had any sleep and I'll, I'll make a point of just going and taking my shoes off on the grass and just laying myself ground and earth and, and feel that connection. And, you know, invariably it tends to make me feel better and more relaxed and, and sleep better, you know? And it's just simple things like that. That just makes such a big difference. And if you don't have that consciousness and you're not really choosing on a daily basis to find connection to nature in that way, then you know, it can really change the way we live.
1 (27m 11s): And that's, you know, that, that, that, that can be fine. And there's lots of people who live well in that way, but I really feel that it can boost and enhance life. And for me, it's like fundamentally necessary for life to actually that more deeper connection and that more intentional way of being in the outdoors.
2 (27m 35s): Yeah. And I, I think it's interesting, isn't it? Because like you, I keep reading the science and going, Oh, okay, well then science explains what my body knew already. Excellent. So he's kind of like a, there's a confirmation bias, obviously. Like I'm already, you know, I'm already convinced, but then reading that sort of reinforces my own. Yeah. My own sort of values that place on those are those things that I do. So that, that actually then if I do take time out to go and sit in the same little spot for 20 minutes, the, the bit of my brain, that's going, Oh, look at you doing nothing can just shut up and go away because I've got kids.
2 (28m 18s): Okay. Science, just, you know, it, it's kind of, it's much easier for me to then allow myself to do those things that I already intrinsically value because this is an extrinsic kind of confirmation of that as well. So I find that, yeah, the, the reading that I've done around that has been very helpful in sort of allowing me to, to again, interesting choice of words. I was about to say indulge.
1 (28m 45s): Yeah. And permission. Yeah,
2 (28m 49s): Yeah, yeah. But actually,
1 (28m 54s): Well, I guess, you know, in, in days gone by, we would have, you know, a lot of people would have had wood burning stoves and we would have relied on having to spend time outside chopping wood, collecting word, gathering stuff. Or we would have been perhaps growing food more and walking, just walking places more, actually we would have been a lot more connected to the cycles and the seasons and the time of year Marez, you know, it's very easy to avoid knowing anything about what's going on outside right now.
1 (29m 25s): Isn't it, especially in the winter, but at any time when we're indoors and we're having meetings on zoom and we're traveling places in the car and we have heating and we have electric lights and you can really avoid what, what the cycles are doing. And then without that, without the stimulation that comes from the natural cycles and the natural connection that you would have from having to do jobs outside, you know, we do have to create it and we do have to allow for it in our busy lifestyles and actually see it as something that's that's vital. 1 (29m 59s): I,
2 (29m 60s): Yeah. So that's really interesting. Sorry. I was just thinking about what you just described that, because actually I spent most of my early, late teens to sort of mid twenties living without running water or electricity so that I had to chop wood and I didn't have a car either. So I had to chop wood and I had to walk everywhere and I had to go to bed cause it was dark and I was too, too tight to burn into the candle because it candle in a half.
2 (30m 32s): And I, and I say, I'm going to bet you that that level of awareness was really high. You know, like I used to get overexcited by electricity because it's like, I can just read for hours. And so then, and actually then at that time, I don't think I ever would talk about being nature connected or I wouldn't have that real. I wouldn't, I didn't have the language of that. I now have to describe the benefits of any of that.
2 (31m 3s): And actually I started to do around working in nature, came after that. And I wonder if that's sort of reaction to finding myself then without the thing that just was the thing that sustained me. Cause you know, if you don't chop your wood, you're not sustained. And if you don't, you know, if you don't kind of do the things that you need, if you don't walk down to the farm and get some water, you're not sustained.
2 (31m 33s): So all of those things that literally were sustaining me, then I've had to self seek in other ways and find ways to replicate that.
1 (31m 44s): Hmm. And I think that's a little bit about the work that we do as far as school leaders is that we're sort of creating that again, aren't we we're creating space in such a risk averse society in such a, you know, the physical risk is, is, has been something that's been really played up over the years and the, the debt and the cleanness of that we seem to create around us and forest school has been like an antidote to that a little bit. And nature connection work is like an antidote to that a little bit.
1 (32m 15s): And it's, it, it, it's a little bit contrived because what we're trying to recreate is that experience that you've just described that you had whenever you were younger, which is just the lived experience of being, being connected. And because of the way we learn now live, it's not just normal, natural. It is, you know, is inherently, but it doesn't come normal, normal and natural to us because we, because of all the trappings that we have.
1 (32m 47s): And I wonder if this time now locked down and the transition or the change that we're in will bring people more, more closer to that because when we aren't connected to our food and we're not connected to where our energy comes from and we're not connected and we don't know our local environment very well because we drive everywhere and go lots further. We're actually quite fragile.
1 (33m 17s): We're actually very dependent on the systems that uphold that way of life. And when those systems break down and those systems aren't there anymore to create this sort of illusionary, a facade that is normality, what we come back to is nature again, and being outside and thinking about food and where's it going to come from? And you know, what's going to happen when, Oh, the producers who would normally be producing at this time of year for winter and the winter supplies and, you know, can't, and aren't doing because of lockdown down and what's going to happen in the future.
1 (33m 59s): I mean, you know, I'm not, I don't, I haven't really been following very much of the news at all, if I can help it. But I, you know, I'm slightly aware that, you know, things like supply chains and in other countries, you know, particularly Africa right now being hugely effected and there are famines and starvation happening because of already because of the lack of supply chains. But, you know, we are likely to be impacted by that too. And there'll be things that we can't get hold of in a few months and, and really made me feel my own vulnerability and want to find more ways of living more sustainably, you know, actually more sustainable.
1 (34m 39s): We live, I've grown, I'm growing things now, and I'm not under the illusion that I'm going to be able to grow enough food to live, feed my family, but definitely more aware of the importance of local food and how important it is for me that I get outside and just sit on the land and sit under trees and, and connect to nature.
2 (34m 60s): And, and alongside that, I really noticed the rise of people, forming networks to support their own community, which I think is really interesting. So like you say those, those vulnerability start to get exposed and I will respond to that as a, as a society has been to check on our neighbors more. And that is quite interesting. Isn't it? Those things that, like you say, you know, we are, we are struggling to maintain the pace of everything.
2 (35m 34s): As soon as you slow everything down and make it all feel a bit more vulnerable than actually our responses, plant vegetables, talk to your neighbors, you know, go and kind of sit under a tree and try and breathe in slowly, you know, those know things that, yeah. Why, why do we run into those things? I think is really good. I mean, I ask it as a question, but I feel like I've got a lot of answers in there as well. You know, like, like withdrawn to that still fall away. It's, it's, it's encoded into us in some way,
1 (36m 5s): And I've heard so many people saying that's what they want to keep. If we ever returned to a more, you know, a, a less lockdown scenario and can go back to work and things, this slow pace of life, this hands in the earth, feet on the ground, elements of connection to nature and to self and to each other is what we want to keep. And, you know,
2 (36m 31s): Yes, sorry, go on. Finish what I was just thinking about what what's then the role of people who's been cultivating that practice for awhile. So you about how you've been working on that process for a while and thinking about those things, how then,
4 (36m 51s): Alright,
2 (36m 51s): So practitioners respond to that. What can we offer people to support through that is, is, is part of that question and it feels like I don't know how to prepare for whatever the next stage is. I can remember, well, no, I don't know what to expect, but, but we've been preparing for it for a really long time. So it's kind of like something will happen. And hopefully we've got all of those resources, those physical, emotional, practical, facilitation type resources in order to be able to school, whatever, whatever that is.
1 (37m 30s): Yeah. Cause I feel like probably there's going to be a lot of nature connectors listening to this podcast. And initially when it all happened, live wild, the business I run had to basically cease to the things that we love to do, being out in the words, sharing that space with people, running courses, being in schools, getting children, outdoors, training teachers too, so that they can do that more, those things are off the cards for us.
1 (38m 1s): And, and you know, that's quite shocking. And it's upsetting. I imagine that the people who are resourced to do that training are themselves at this moment, nurturing their connection. And I hope so anyway, that, you know, making the most of the time to, to do what we know and that is get outside and, and listen and pay attention and nurture and nourish ourselves so that the time when the time comes, but what else could we be doing?
1 (38m 31s): I sort of, it's
2 (38m 33s): Interesting, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I was Just thinking, as you were talking that that phrase of physician heal thyself, it's like, yeah, I'm just going to do what you do well, and I think that is, that is crucial. Isn't it to not kind of not get distracted into the, Oh, I should be putting everything I do online or which I, I really feel that, you know, kind of have more online meetings and created more online resources in the last four months than I have in the last 20 years at the same time.
2 (39m 8s): I think that that is also part of the need to connect still. I think that's important, but also this sort of awareness of, you know, yeah. How do we do the work that we know is valid, valued, and valuable when we can't do it in the way that comes naturally as well? So this is something that I, and I don't have the answer to this for sure, because I still can't picture myself facilitating in the way that I facilitate in the current right now, climate that's going to change.
2 (39m 44s): I know that, but I'm still trying to make that leap in my brain and yeah. Sort of thinking about how I can work with other people who have the same questions to actually just do it as well and try it and experiment and test and play with it, see what happens and see what works as well. And I think that's going to be important. Isn't it sort of those practitioner networks of kind of testing ideas with each other.
1 (40m 11s): And that's, you know, I think when, when you're someone who has spent a lot of time in nature and do you love, you know, I love the work that I do in nature. And I, I know that I know quite a few people who've done the trainings that you've done, Lily and who just it's absolutely changed their lives because the Spacey hold is so connected and in beautiful places, you know, like we've said before, nature does the work, but also if there is a, there is real meaning and purpose behind learning how to do nature connection, you know, relearning how to do it for ourselves and families, but also then how to share that with people in a way that actually impacts lives in, in such a powerful way.
1 (40m 53s): So we can't do that the way we know, but it is also possible to hold very connective spaces online and, or provide ways for people now who are seeking to do more connection based work for themselves and their children and, and do that for people, with people, by creating these sort of hubs and online communities and reaching out to the people who might have come. And that's, I'm quite excited about what will come out of that, you know, really developing the potential of that.
1 (41m 27s): You know, we're finding for our women's group, that more people are coming and the singing online, more people are coming, then who would then, then those who would turn up in the words because you know, of course, you know, you don't have to go anywhere and that's the biggest barrier is getting people to these places. So if we can, like, if we can do some of the connection stuff together and then inspire each other to go off and do the solo nature connection work, or their small group and family nature connection work, and then share, you know, we may be impacting more people.
1 (42m 5s): We may actually have the opportunity in all of this to, to impact and bring what is so important to more people and find that.
2 (42m 15s): Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah. That being able to start with where people are at is always so key, right? Wherever people are now is where you need to start. And for some people leaving their homes and going to a Woodland, isn't where they're at. So actually what you're saying there is that you're doing an online, so people are telling you up cause I'm in my home and that's where I'm at. And then hopefully over time and you know, in the future, when you can wait together in the Woodside, Oh, well I know those people, I feel okay.
2 (42m 46s): Going with those people and that, again, it's, it's all about the value of connection. So looking for those different ways to establish those links as well, isn't it. So I do my own training work through, through my company kindling. I'm also part of a collective of practitioners called stomping ground that works with communities and folk locally. And we had a something I'm meeting Friday last week sometime.
2 (43m 19s): And the post it notes that I, that we came up with, I still stuck to my all over my computer. Cause it was like, yes, that's important stuff. And one of them is just, they just said, acts of connection, but how can we create those? What are the acts of connection? So, yeah, we were planning our first to meet up for families that should have been meeting. They should have been meeting this week, but we've put it off for a week while we work out with technology because that's new for us doing that sort of stuff. But it'll be interesting to see how that maintains that community and maintains that sense of, of the groups that they get to see each other.
2 (43m 59s): And for some of the families who live near the woods, they've been going into the woods and the children will be saying, where's everybody else, you know? So we need to find ways of doing that. Where is everybody else? And finding ways to connect with people there as well.
1 (44m 16s): Yeah. I have experienced quite a few various and different types of zoom meetings with children and, you know, with my own children and family members and all with varying levels of success and connection, because obviously for children, their levels of attention are limited and you have to really engage them. And, you know, to be in an online zoom room with quite a few people can be quite chaotic. And so that inspired me to do an episode actually of the podcast, which is about how to create untold connective spaces online for that reason, because I just, I just got sick of turning up and everyone just go.
1 (45m 1s): And then there are people who sit there in the corner and don't say anything for the whole time and others who, you know, try and speak. And, and it got me thinking about what we do when we're in the words. And you know, when we're with children, when we're doing forest school, whether we're doing other types of nature connection or holding space in any way, and, and all of those things still apply, you know, we need to have beginnings and endings. We need to have guidance in how to listen. We need to be able to give everybody opportunity to speak at least once.
1 (45m 33s): And, you know, and there are other things that create the magic. That is a good connective space. And, and when we're outdoors, we do that intentionally as facilitators and as leaders and space holders. And I think, you know, invariably it doesn't change whenever you're holding space online. So yeah, I was quite excited to do that really, because it feels like I've got opportunities to do that kind of connection, but to do it in, do it in a way that doesn't put us off doing it again, I think would be great.
2 (46m 11s): That is the key. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. My, my husband pretty scarred by zoom and just won't know, and then I get it. I totally get it. So we'll say I've also heard
1 (46m 27s): Stories from people who are like, Oh, you know, I, would've never gone to a men's group or I would have never gone to and done mindfulness, but because I can do it in my own home, I am doing it and it's changing my life. And it's, it's that, you know, permaculture thing that the problem is the solution and what can we do to see the gifts in this scenario and then create connective experiences and then bring them back into whatever the next normality is. Yeah, yeah,
2 (46m 58s): Yeah. That, that meeting, meeting people where they are now and then going on with them from that place, you know, that that's, isn't it, and this is a good reminder that there's a load of people that are why we're at loads of them. And we know about that all the time, but actually when you're really busy and there's loads of work coming in, it feels like you can, there are loads of people who are where I'm at. And actually when you like, like you, you know, over pretty much over a weekend and watch my diary, just go down the plug hole.
2 (47m 32s): And I was like, okay, like, ah, know exactly like you were saying, I had to green that a little while. It was like, you know, that's all gone. And then, well, actually it's a good opportunity to pay attention to what's going on when you're not focused on what's coming next and what am I doing and where am I at half past nine? And how am I, you know, like all of those.
1 (47m 52s): And I think you can get lost in that. Can't you like as, even as even running nature connection programs and events, you still get caught up in the same way as anybody else does in marketing and communicating and meeting and planning and all of that stuff, numbers and money and finances. And they're, they're really distracting. And, and I've seen it a lot in other nature connectors and they show that, you know, it's the same in the field of the arts and music and people really want to be just doing making music and they really want to be just making really want to just be out in the woods.
1 (48m 29s): And, and in fact, we are all caught up in all of these other things. So, you know, what is it that we can learn in this time that helps us to do what we want to do and not get caught up in all of that. That was what live wild evolve to become, to try to become a platform for other nature connectors so that people didn't have to reinvent the wheel all the time. And they don't have to set up, learn how to set up websites and learn how to sort of get people onto their mailing lists and everything.
1 (49m 1s): And that we could do that. And hopefully we'll be that again at some point, but at the moment it feels like just being is enough, is there? Yes,
2 (49m 14s): Yes. Yeah. And actually for people who are really, you know, my, my husband's a really amazing crafts person, but doesn't do any of the marketing communication meetings, planning. It just isn't him. And so as, as I started working for somebody else where you can just focus on the craft and it's also recognizing, you know, what, what's your niche as well, and where are your burial gifts best placed as well. And then making, like using communities of practice as well.
2 (49m 48s): So like you're talking about with live wild, so that for people who don't like doing all of those things and can't, can't face the admin, I've got an opportunity. Yeah. Cause people often, you know, when I'm out in the woods, stuff's in about and looking like it's all a lovely time, God, you must have the best job ever. Well, yes, yes I do. But there is admin like, yeah,
1 (50m 17s): Yeah, yeah. I must say I'm relieved. Not have to look and check onto the booking system constantly to see who's booked and how many people we've got. So I'm wondering for all the forest school practitioners out there right now, because there's more to it. Isn't there. It's like we can choose to be more present. We can go and do our practices, but there's a financial implication to this. And, and that when you literally can't afford to pay your bills and you literally can't afford to pay your mortgage, because all of your grieves that you completely depended upon, I've been canceled for the foreseeable future.
1 (50m 54s): That's pretty tricky to say the least and the worrying thing, as much as I see the opportunity in this said worrying thing for me is that lots of outdoor education businesses will fold in this and people will have to let go of that and do other things in order to sustain themselves, which they may then, then never come back from. And it's like, that's, that's the reality for some people that I'm finding difficult. I'm wondering if you've heard from practitioners or nature connectors or have a sense of what the national position is on, you know, people who are doing nature, connection work and that kind of thing.
2 (51m 33s): Yeah. It definitely I've talked to folk who are finding it really tricky and maybe don't qualify for other means of support as well right now. And that that's quite a she as well. Isn't it? Yeah. And I think
1 (51m 48s): Because we don't have premises, sorry, sorry. Don't have business premises. So you don't get that small business loan. And it's like, we don't work in the words, so we don't have premises. And that that's one of the key ones, isn't it?
2 (52m 0s): Well also he's not being set up for three years, you know, that's another thing. So, so, you know, there's lots of people who fall into that gap and I think what you were describing people going away and doing other things, but then critically the bit you said was about from that. And, and I think going away and doing other things is, is not the issue. It's the not coming back. Like how do we hold onto those people? So again, how do you kind of keep connection with those? The, the first, the first jobs I had, we used to run out of money twice a year, but the funding cycle and corresponded with the potato picking cycle.
2 (52m 39s): So actually what we did quite a few years, like, Oh, the one is we're now that's okay. It's October, we'd go into fields. Would pick potatoes for a few weeks and for a month or so, and then we'd come back. And then in March, then when he read it out again and we'd grade the potatoes out of the shed, so the going away temporarily, it wasn't the issue. But I think the big thing is about the not coming back. And we were talking about how being in contact with other people, reminds us what our bubble is like. And so if you are, you know, like going and standing in a field, picking potatoes with a bunch of folks, who've come from all over or who are local or whoever, but I've really different perspective to see you.
2 (53m 20s): I used to, I used to love it. Cause you know, when you sit in a field all day with a bunch of people, you learn a lot about their lives and that for me to real, yeah, yeah, really good reminder of what else is going on in the world. But yeah, we were coming back so planning the return is really key, isn't it?
1 (53m 37s): Hmm. Yeah. I'm actually, I, you know, as, as much as I, I do worry about people, I worry about them and their anxiety more than I worry about them and their ability to come back because you know, what is going to be more needed when we return to some sort of normal level of moving about in society than connecting with nature and having spaces to go to do that in a held way, which is what you know, we do as good nature connection practitioners.
2 (54m 7s): And interestingly in Italy, they're talking about the importance of the outdoor space. When children, when children return back to school, that's already a big conversation in the UK about how outdoor space is going to be critical to children returning back to school because physically you can get more people outside and further apart you can in a room like just practically on that level. So, so there is going to be scoped and the, and with Anne as well to people talking about smaller groups of children meeting together.
2 (54m 41s): So like, say like, I can't expect anything, but we can prepare for the fact there's going to be a need that if we're going to have more children outside in smaller groups, there's got to be some things that gives that there's got to be, we'll have big funding for extra support in schools. Will there be resources put into that? I don't know, but you know, having, having an eye on that stuff.
1 (55m 6s): Yeah. And my chin, imagine if this could be the, cause one of the problems as snitch connection practitioners that we've had is the fact that, you know, most schools are their own businesses. Now that they're all separate entities. There isn't a one local education authority as such that can say, well, all schools are going to do for a school now, but there may be, you know, there may be guidance like that, that sort of supports a nature connection and, and helps raise using the science and the research to show the benefits of getting children outdoors and doing that well in a way that allows them that freedom to move and, and do all of that physical learning and letting go of difficult emotions that,
2 (55m 52s): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. You know, like w the science says that's where the stress is reduced, and if anything, right now stress is one of the things that's really a big feature of a lot of people's lives. So, yeah. Yeah. How can we use that science? So it's definitely sort of the conversations we've been having and the high school association we've been talking to other charities and organizations that have that as a drive of how can we, how can we ensure that, that scene, but it's, yeah.
2 (56m 28s): It's not as easy as just holding up a big black art and going yeah. But I'm looking at what other countries are doing as well. And looking at what the guidance is. I think we really need to keep an eye out for that stuff.
1 (56m 41s): Oh, there are other countries that are doing things well, in terms of outdoor learning. And
2 (56m 49s): Well, also all of the only thing I was thinking about was, was, well, Italy started to say, and obviously there that had most of Europe in terms of the timeline and that's something that's coming out of what they're, they're saying balls. So just thinking back in our own history, the rise in outdoor schools, as a response to the TB epidemics in what was that? 1918, 1920. Yeah. See, I thought I was better at history, but yeah.
2 (57m 23s): So when we've had previous epidemics in the UK, there was then a big push towards OpenAir schools. So the McMillan sisters set up a lot of outdoor schools in Deptford and in Bradford and places like that, where they were showing that children who were in those environments were thriving and coping better. So again, that, that might, that might be a history that comes back to us.
1 (57m 46s): Yeah. Great. Yeah. Well, that's hope so. Ah, so we've meandered through all the, all of the benefits and joys of nature connection, and, you know, talks a little bit about the risks of the problems associated with this time, but I'm ending feeling more hopeful and looking forward whilst we don't know what is going to happen and have no idea of where, where we're actually gonna end up.
1 (58m 16s): You know, we know that nature connection is, is, is key to life generally. And we've always been banging on about that, but more than ever, it feels like it's going to be the way that we can really heal a lot of the trauma and stress and, and just bring back that connection that we so greatly need as humans. And yeah, that's been a good conversation. Thank you, Lily.
1 (58m 46s): I'm wondering if people want to get in touch with you or know more about for school association or, you know, where do they go and what, what, what are you doing right now that people might want to know about that kind of thing?
2 (59m 2s): So, well, the first school association, our website for school association.org, it's a membership organization. And for, for school practitioners, if they're needing access to information, that's a really good place to go for that. And we're trying to pull together guidance to support people as things change as well. My own work, kindling play and training, and my website's kindling plan and training.co.uk in terms of what I'm doing right now that people might be interested in. I've got the social media stuff, but it's mostly just like, Oh, I saw her bed.
2 (59m 37s): I'm not consciously not trying to create a lot of output because, and actually the cook was pretty empty before I came into this locked down situations. I actually just sitting around, filling up my own cup is what I'm doing right now. So he might get little, little hints of, of the drops that are going in, but there's nothing really getting ticked out right now, but that's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like you say, you gotta, you gotta walk the walk as well.
2 (1h 0m 8s): Haven't you? So yeah, no new things. That's what I'm doing right now.
1 (1h 0m 14s): I love that. I love, you know, because actually, you know, that's, that's, that's sometimes we just need to stop don't we and take stock and listen and, and grow into whatever it is that comes next. And then we'll be resourced and ready to fly or no, just carry on. Yeah. This is found it it's as good a model as anything, isn't it for helping other people see what works well in life.
1 (1h 0m 48s): So, yeah.
2 (1h 0m 49s): I don't know how long I can sustain it for financially, but the other side of that, isn't it, but there's a lot less.
1 (1h 0m 57s): Yes. Yeah. Oh, well, thank you so much. It's been really nice to chat to you and just connect a little bit more about what's important. What feels important to people now, humans now, and all beings actually will all be benefit from benefiting from this time and more connection to nature.
2 (1h 1m 19s): And thanks, thanks for the invitation actually, because it's helped me think about some of the stuff that's going on for me right now, and what's going on for the people in those that aren't around me as well. So thank you. Yeah. Really, really benefited from that.
1 (1h 1m 34s): Yeah. It feels exciting to me to be able to get this out to people and have an opportunity to just have these discussions openly and, and, and hopefully other people being inspired by them too.
0 (1h 1m 51s): Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. I hope it inspires you to follow your path of deep connection. I love sharing this information so much and I'll always share any relevant links in lecture. If you like the show, please consider supporting in a patrion.com forward slash connection. That is podcasting. This is where you'll find bonus episodes, giveaways, and behind the scenes content from me as well as having a huge heartfelt thanks for any that you can give me.
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